I'm having a problem with odor from stagnant water in the intake line for the head. When I pump the head, after not using it for a week or so, it will knock you over. Does anyone out there have any experience solving this problem? Does anyone know a safe way to connect the head intake to the fresh water system?
Gary - S/V Expresso - '75 C&C 35 Mk II
East Greenwich, RI, USA

I suspect that the odor is actually from the toilet outlet hose. Try replacing the joker valve and I will bet that the odor disappears!
Warren Davis - Jazz V41

Gary,
odor is one reason we quit using raw seawater to flush the head. We now have a 12 oz plastic cup we keep in the head for people to draw fresh water into, to use to flush the head. In other words we don't us the normal head intake, but rather use a large plastic cup filled with fresh water to flush. We find a cup of water is usually plenty of water, plus as a side benefit, we find we do not fill up the holding tank near as quick.
Regards, - Jim Stephenson - Mischief, C&C 35-II

Warren,
I rebuilt the entire pump including joker valve. No better.
Gary

We had the same problem on our boat and solved it by installing a inline head treatment system. This unit installs between the sea cock and the toilet. What it does very nicely is that there is always head treatment in the hose and every time you flush it always leaves a little bit in the bowl thus eliminating all odors.
Richard

I keep a small bottle of bleach in the head, and before I leave the boat I pump the head as dry as possible and trickle a few drops into the bowl. Keeps the odor down nicely, and I don't think it has any adverse effect on the plumbing itself.
Ed

I have done the same thing with vinegar. but i would be interested to know more about the inline treatment system

I read somewhere that chlorine bleach is bad for rubber parts - can anyone confirm this?

There are two of them out there one is made by earth safe the other by Alex Milne and Associates. Have used both and out of the two the Tank-ette by Alex Milne and Associates is the best. They have a 1-800-563-5947 ask for the tankette system us retail if i remember correctly is 39.95.
Richard

Yah chlorine bleach is bad for the rubber parts. I know because after a couple of years of doing that i had to replace the joker valve and then the flapper valve. Now after 4 years with the inline i just put in two pucks every month ( we use our boat heavily) and have had no problems since.
Richard

Be careful. Bleach will attack rubber, eventually resulting in permeation odors, plastics, a real problem if you have a plastic sending unit in your tank and it will also eat into aluminum. Chlorine bleach also contributes to the manufacture of Dioxins when it comes into contact with organic materials.
There are good toilet chemicals out there that will solve your problems and in the end are a lot cheaper than replacing tanks, hoses etc. Certainly a lot less aggravating. If you get a toilet chemical designed to digest household toilet tissue, you will save enough by not having to buy the expensive biodegradable tissue to pay for the head chemical. We use the nice soft, cheaper, toilet tissue we bring from home and it does not plug the hoses or foul the sending unit.
We used to sell and service aftermarket level sending kits. Most of the service problems were as a result of boat owners using bleach, which voided the warranty. A $75.00 to $100.00 invoice for service usually cured the practice. You can buy a lot of head chemical for $100.00.
For years, I have been adding a bit of head chemical to the water in the toilet bowl whenever I leave the boat and my head never smells, even when I leave the boat for 2 to 3 weeks with a 1/2 full tank.
Hope this helps. - Richard

If you haven't already done so, I would suggest reading the information on odor control at the following website
http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/phall.htm
Peggie is the resident expert on such matters. If you are in saltwater, I am guessing that the source of your odor is the stagnant water in your intake hose.
Peggie suggests flushing the system with freshwater before leaving the boat so that the organisms in saltwater are not dying and smelling up your intake hose.
Don't use bleach. It is bad for your plumbing and kills the good bacteria in your holding tank. Those inline dispensers try and cover the odor, but are probably bad for the aerobic bacteria in your holding tank. I have used a product that Peggie recommends called "KO" for kills odor. It worked very well. Her website is much more detailed thn this and she has been very helpful to me via e mail.
Good luck. If you follow Peggie's advice, you will have it whipped in no time.
Randy

Kevin-
Bleach breaks down almost everything, the key is how much. Leave the toilet full of bleach for a month and you'll have no valves. But just add two or three drops to kill the marine life in the bowl...and the rubber probably will never notice, since the bleach oxidizes and breaks down pretty quickly, but that's still enough to kill the critters.
There's probably a delicate line to walk.

Randy,
Yes, I have read Peggie's epistle and have, in fact, installed my head in accordance with her recommendations. I do appreciate you sending the web site though, as it has been relocated and I had lost the address. Because of the installation, I have little trouble with the waste side of the system, it's the raw water side that is killing me. I agree with your suggestion of flushing the intake hose before leaving the boat with fresh water, but how? I have a seacock connected directly to the head via a section of hose. Any thoughts?
Thanks, - Gary - S/V Expresso - '75 C&C 35 Mk II

Gary...
I am scratching my head trying to recall how Peggie suggested using a fresh water flush short of disconnecting the intake hose from the seacock. As I sail in fresh water, I have never had that particular problem...just all the others:) I seem to recall seeing her discussing installing some sort of tee fitting in the line to facilitate the addition of fresh water. Why not email her directly and ask her at
Peggie Hall - E-mail Address(es): - peghall@bellsouth.net
I hate to take it off the list as these subjects always seem to be of interest to most of us, but she is a much better source than I am:) It does seem like it would not be complicated to splice a fitting into the intake line. She has been regularly recommending flushing the system with fresh water to eliminate the problem you describe, but I just don't recall her plumbing solution.
Randy

Just a note to reply... I have presonally used for 5 years and have thus decided to carry the "Earth Safe" inline treatment system. One of the reasons was that Practical Sailor rated several and found that was the best for the money.
If you want more info about it, please email me OFF LIST! at
ken@weekendrproducts.com
-Ken Kloeber

The only problem i had with earth safe is that the tiny holes tend to clog up in our cold waters of Canada, and after scooping it out a couple of times and putting in hot water to dissolve the area where the holes are i gave up and went to the other unit tankette. Holes there are much bigger.
My 2 cents
Richard

Fred,
Certainly. Her is the text from Peggie Hall.
Intake Odor Cure

Seawater stinks! And so does some fresh water. Micro and not so micro marine life--animal and vegetable--gets trapped in the head intake line, in the pump, the channel in the rim of the bowl, dies and decays...and as a result, the first couple of flushes after the boat has sat for a few days are RIPE! Just pouring something down the head doesn't help much--it can't get into the intake line or inside the rim where the worst of the odor is coming from...inline chemical devices help some...but they're expensive, often messy, and don't solve the whole problem. We have a customer to thank for the slickest solution to it we've ever heard: As is true on may sailboats, the sink in his head drains through the same through-hull and seacock as the toilet intake. As part of his closing-up-the-boat routine after a weekend (or longer) aboard, he closes the seacock...pumps the head as dry as possible...then pours a couple OF quarts of fresh water down the sink. When pumps the head again, because the seacock is closed, the head pulls the water from the sink--rinsing the seawater out of the whole system, including the head discharge line. He adds a healthy shot of C.P. Cleans Potties! to the water in the sink, but white vinegar does a good job too...this isn't a commercial for our products. If your sink already drains through the head intake, you're set. If it doesn't, you have a couple of options: if the head through hull is close to the sink, re-route the drain. If it's not practical to do that, a simple little radiator flush valve (avialable at any auto parts store) installed in the head intake line just ahead of the seacock will give you means of flushing out the system without a major plumbing refit. Our customer tells he's been doing this for several years, and hasn't had a trace of seawater odor since the first time he tried it.
Gary - S/V Expresso - '75 C&C 35 Mk II - East Greenwich, RI, USA

On our 32 we added an anti-siphon loop after a scary near-flood. Not only did we eliminate siphoning, but the intake side is now "self-draining," since the top of the loop is up near the level of the gunwale. We sail in fresh water, so I don't know for sure if this would be the answer to keeping dead saltwater beasties from stinking things up, but it seems like it might (plus I don't think I'll ever own a boat again without one).

Why is it that the head uses seawater and not fresh water from the holding tank?
40 gallons of fresh water goes a long way. In the case of our 30foot, the forward tank is only used for the sink in the head. If a line was taken off the forward tank, a one-way valve installed in the line, there would not be a problem of backfeeding into the fresh water tank and therefore eliminate most of the odor creating problems.
Or am I missing something?
Stu

High end electric macerating toilets do offer a freshwater solenoid option that allows them to draw flush water off the onboard pressurized water sytem, and it's been a VacuFlush "claim to fame" for 25 years. Pressurized water replaces the pump. It also requires that the toilet be equipped with the necessary check valves and siphon breakers to prevent any contamination of the potable water system in the event the toilet overflows and backs up into the intake line. Although the toilets are expensive compared to manual toilets, the power consumption is very low (it's intake pumps that use 90% of the power, not the macerator), and flush water consumption is equally low.
Manual toilets cannot be plumbed draw off the fresh water system, however...there's no way to safely connect a manual pump to the freshwater system and still be able to flush the toilet. 'cuz it's a little more complex than simply installing a one way valve. Not only do you want to prevent flush water from travelling the wrong direction, but bacteria too. If there WERE a way to do it, you can bet that at least one toilet mfr would have put one on the market years ago.
Your only two viable options are: replace the toilet with designed to draw off the fresh water system (the Raritan Crown II would be an excellent choice for your boat) or install a separate water tank for the head.
Peggie

40 gallons of water isn't near enough for some people. Granted it would last for a weekend cruise, but I carry around 60 gallons and we had to really watch it going to Bermuda with 6 onboard. I guess I have just gotten used to it, but having the head smell bad the first time I flush it isn't that big a deal. If I haven't been aboard for a few days I just pump it for a bit before anyone else gets aboard and send some Joy soap down the line.
Joe Della Barba - Coquina

Stu-
- If a line was taken off the forward tank, a one-way valve installed in the line,-
I don't think that is sufficient under any local sanitary codes. I know, a boat isn't governed by those codes. I'm just referring to the fact that the one-way valve is not considered sufficient protection, and septic poisoning is something to be VERY careful about. (Which is probably what caused all those codes to be written in the first place.)
That's why a "day tank" for the toilet, with a conventional break from the rest of the fresh water system, would be a good simple way to isolate the two.

No, but they ARE "governed" by ABYC, UL, NFPA, and USCG safety standards.
Peggie

Yes your missing one little thing Stu, and that is the bacteria from the toilet can travel back to the water tank which is like they say not a good thing for your water tank. I have enjoyed (actually my wife) the in line chemical unit for the last 4 years and we sleep in the v-berth where the 45 gallons of you know what is stored.
Richard

Hello Peggie,
So, what do the various marine codes have to say about plumbing the freshwater to the head?
And does the USCG really have any sanitary codes that apply to heads in small craft, aside from ensuring they don't go overboard?

Peggie
I have read your materials on holding tanks and would really like to put them to practice. Like many of us on the list, the original 30 gallon holding take in the bow was never used as such, and was put to work as another fresh water tank. The holding tank is a bladder under the V berth and yes, it is a poor excuse for a proper repository. I would like to replace it with a hard walled tank.

Unless the tank is metal, the best solution would be to REconvert the 30 gallon tank back into a holding tank--it's already there--and add another water tank (which can be a bladder--they're ok for water, just not for sewage)...which is what I'd have recommended you do in the first place.
It also already has a vent going to the outside of the boat. Depending upon where it goes and the path it travels, it may only be necessary to replace the vent fitting on the tank and the existing through hull with larger diameter--1"--fittings. Or it may be necessary to either move it or add another one.
What's the tank made of? And does it have an inspection port?
Peggie

Hi peggie.
Head tank rules are just now starting to come in for us. the boating population was too low in the past to warrant it, but it's the future. The new regs are listing some bays as "tank only", a few at a time, depending on how heavy the use is. It's a good thing.
I will be putting a tank in my c&c 1973 25, as, like I said, I can see the writing on the wall.
Could you direct me to a source of the new regulations? For example, I'm wondering if I can put a Y joint in and flush the tank clean when I'm way out at sea, away from sensitive bays.
Also, I understand your point about getting oxygen in the tank, but I'm not clear on how. Did you recommend that an air intake be put through the hull at the bow, below the deck? I do want to get oxygen into my tank, but I don't like holes in my hull. I'd rather rig a little fan or something.
Thanks kindly.
John and Sonia - Altair cnc73/25

Since I sold my company and "retired," I'm not sure my copies of ABYC and ISO standards are still current, so I have a call in to the chairman of the ABYC boat piping committee for the latest info. And a call into the VP engineering at one of the toilet mfrs to ask him why the only toilets that draw off the potable fresh water supply use a solenoid...why no one has ever made one that just uses an electric pump.
(I've never claimed to KNOW all the answers...only most of 'em, and where to find the ones I don't know).
"And does the USCG really have any sanitary codes that apply to heads in small craft, aside from ensuring they don't go overboard?"
No. However, there are USCG codes relating to other systems on a boat...and my comments were in reply to another comment that, unlike buildings on land, there are are no "building codes" for boats. Yes, there are. Compliance with some of them is voluntary...with others it's mandatory.
I'll get back to y'all on the fresh water toilet issues as soon as I talk to my sources.
Peggie

John,
I do not yet have a copy of any new Canadian regulations. Your best bet is the Canadian Coast Guard.
However, I suspect they will not be much different--if any--from US regulations...in which case:

"I'm wondering if I can put a Y joint in and flush the tank clean when I'm way out at sea, away from sensitive bays."

No reason I know of why you shouldn't be able to do that in coastal waters.

Also, I understand your point about getting oxygen in the tank, but I'm not clear on how. Did you recommend that an air intake be put through the hull at the bow, below the deck? I do want to get oxygen into my tank, but I don't like holes in my hull.
You won't have a choice about that one. Because methane is flammable, ISO rules require that all holding tanks MUST be vented to the outside of the boat. That won't be waived by any Canadian regs regarding discharge.
Peggie